Enjoy this conversation between Ed Stetzer and author Tullian Tchividjian.
ES: There's a lot of things in the book from the atonement to greed
to loss of truth. The book covers some strong ground and kind of
calling people back to an unapologetic, unfashionable view of life,
church and ministry.
TT: Yeah, yeah. Yes, that is. This book was
penned with tremendous passion. I say in the book that if I did not
write it, I was going to explode because it was brewing, it had been
brewing in me for about 15 years. And it really is my clarion call. I'm
36 years old. I'm a South Florida native. I am on the front lines of
practical ministry as Pastor at Coral Ridge. And so this is my clarion
call to young evangelicals to embrace the fact that we are odd, that
we're never going to fit in. But the irony and the thing that I think
we need to embrace, the paradox here, is that when you study church
history, what you discover is that the church has always served the
world best when it has been most counter cultural, when it has been
most different from the world. I'm not talking about curling up in our
holy huddles and sucking our thumbs and waiting for the rapture to
come. I am talking about full blown cultural engagement. But it's the
way we engage culture that I'm really, really addressing.
The
book assumes the fact that we are to engage this world. In fact, I have
a few chapters that talk about the absolute call from God to his people
to engage this world to transform this world into the world to come
because God is on a mission to do just that. But I'm talking more in
the book about how do we do it? Do we do it by being the same, or do we
do it by being different? And if we do it by being different, what does
that really look like practically speaking? And so that's what the book
seeks.
ES: The book has gotten widespread acclaim. You got a
great list of endorsers. But at the same time, but people are still
missing the point. There's the one side that says we've just got to
engage culture, we've got to use every tool, we've got to be relevant
and cutting edge, and they have all the cliché. Then you've got this
other side that says unhelpful things like contextualization will be an
anathema to the Apostles, we don't need to worry about those things. So
you're trying to come in and bring a third way, and saying, we do need
to be engaging, even relevant to culture, but we deeply oppose the
culture where culture opposes the word and its teachings.
TT:
Yeah. I identify in one of the chapters entitled Where in the World Are
Christians, I talk about the fact that there are always two ways to
fall off a tightrope. There are always two extremes we need to avoid in
any given situation, and that is true when it comes to Christianity and
culture of the church and the world. And the one extreme we need to
avoid is to avoid being culturally removed, totally disengaged from the
world. The other extreme we need to avoid is to avoid being culturally
relaxed, so absorbed with the culture that we're really no different.
So
there's a big section in the book on contextualization, and I
wholeheartedly agree that contextualization is not only necessary, but
is absolutely unavoidable. I mean we all live our lives within a
particular context. I give some examples of, some simple examples even,
of when I am trying to teach my three kids something about God, I'm
going to teach my seven-year-old a little bit different. I'm going to
use words and pictures and tone of voice and things like that that are
different with her than I would with my 15-year-old. And I'm going to
talk to my 15-year-old about those things in a different way than I'm
going to talk to a 55-year-old. I mean every English translation of the
bible is an effort to contextualize biblical truth translated from the
original languages into a language that English-speaking people like me
can understand. And so we have to be contextualizing. And so I make
sure that the reader understands we're talking about full-blown
engagement. I mean in fact, I've taken more hits actually as a result
of writing this book because I talk so much about transforming culture.
There's
a big debate going on these days regarding whether or not we should be
engaging culture or whether or not we should just be the church. And I
don't think that the bible allows us to build a dichotomy there. How do
we transform this world? We transform this world by being the church.
So it's not an either or. It's definitely a both and. It's making a
difference by being different. It's making a difference in our
community by being a different community.
ES: So it's a challenge
to find that balance. What would you say to these young pastors who
right now are really pursuing relevance? Would you tell them to stop?
Would you tell them to add something to it? Would you tell them to
reconsider? What would you say to them?
TT: I would say that to
be truly relevant you have to say things that are timeless, not trendy.
That's what I would say. I address this in the book, that in order to
be truly relevant you have to be otherworldly. You have to operate
according to a different ethic, that there is a deep relevance to being
irrelevant, so to speak.
When we try too hard to fit in we
actually become irrelevant because we're not saying anything different.
I mean it's almost like we lose our voice. We lose our unique niche,
the church does, when we're trying too hard to fit in. We become
indistinguishable from a world that desperately wants something
different.
If you just look around at the world today, and you
read a quote which piggybacks on what I'm about to say, but if you look
around at the world today, the world is desperately crying out for
something otherworldly. I mean the fascination with sort of pop
spirituality, angels, aliens, all those sorts of things indicate that
there is a deep longing in the human soul that craves something beyond
this world. Well, when Christians put their greatest tool up on the
shelf in the name of being relevant, we end up becoming really, really
irrelevant. And, I have to wonder sometimes about whether or not
Christians and pastors who try so hard to fit in and be relevant are
really doing it because they have a deep passion to reach the world or
if they have a deep passion to be accepted. And I know that's a
struggle that I find. I can try so hard to be fashionable and be cool
and fit in and do it under the guise of I'm trying to reach the world,
but I know what's going on in my heart. I know what's really going on.
What's really going on is I just want the world to think I'm cool. I
don't want people around me to think I'm odd and unfashionable and
strange. I want them to think I'm like them. Like I can be cool, too.
Christians can be cool, too.
ES: I've actually heard people say that, yeah. And that's a desire,
I think, to communicate. I think for some people it's a desire to build
a bridge, and I get that.
But I think ultimately it's, there
always comes a point where there are things for which we stand, there's
always the stumbling block of the cross, but even more so it's just
there are places where we say, we differ. And if we don't have that
then we lose the saltiness.
Ironically, we look at the, many
mainline denominations chased after relevance in the 60's, and today
nobody pays attention to them. In a great twist of historic irony, in a
desire to engage the world they became like the world, and then the
world didn't pay attention to them anymore.
TT: We're talking
about timeless truth that has been relevant for generations and has
been relevant throughout the centuries. And like I said before, I think
if we want to be truly relevant we have to say things that are timeless
and not trendy because if we spend our life as a church chasing the
latest trend we'll always be behind the 8-ball. I'll never forget, and
I mention this as an illustration in the book. I'll never forget the
time that a Hollywood actor pulled my Granddad aside in the late 1950's
when my Granddad was becoming a very, very famous preacher of the
Gospel, and he said, "Billy, don't ever try to do Hollywood because
Hollywood will always do it better than you. You give the world the one
thing Hollywood can't, the timeless truth of the Gospel." That's
relevant.
ES: Speak to the pastor who says, "We are
unfashionable. We don't try to look like the world. We stand against
that worldly music. We stand against worldly culture. We tell our
people don't watch TV. We're separate." They're basically striving to
be the new spiritual Amish, and they're doing it because they want to
be unfashionable. What do you say to that person about culture?
TT:
I would say that God is on a mission to make all things new, that God
is on a mission to transform this present world into the world to come,
that when Christ came the first time He inaugurated this process of
universal transformation. When He comes back a second time, He will
consummate or complete this process of universal transformation, making
all things new, bring heaven to earth so to speak. But in between the
times, in between Christ's first coming and His second coming, God has
called His people, He's equipped His church to carry on what Christ
began and will one day complete. And so, what I tell people like that
is God has transformed us to become agents of transformation. He has,
He has renewed us so that we would become agents of renewal. There is a
reason why Jesus calls His disciples salt and light. We know that salt
and light only make a difference when it makes contact. Salt can only
preserve something that's rotting when it makes contact with what it is
that it's rotting. You know, light can only shine in the darkness if it
makes contact with the darkness.
Another line that I use in the
book, which has really helped me over the years, is we need to
"contextualize without compromise." We need to make contact with the
world while colliding with the ways of the world. And so to the people
who say well we are just going to set up big thick walls to protect us
from those nasty pagans on the outside, and we're going to sing our
songs and do our deal and just hope and pray every day that the rapture
comes and rescues us from this nasty place, well they are just
categorically failing to understand the overarching message of the
bible, which is that God is on a mission to make all things news, and
He's called His people and equipped His people to be his agents of
renewal in between the times.
ES: Excellent. Thank you so much,
Tullian, for taking the time to talk. This is a very helpful book. I'd
recommend it to people to read. I've given it to many both contemporary
church pastors and many maybe those who are not engaging culture. And I
find it to be a good balanced look at these things.
If you don't
have it, pick up Unfashionable today. It an excellent book on an issue
that's hot right now (and always "relevant"). And check out the solid
discussion questions in the back of the book.
Some leaders say the controversial Lakeland Revival is forcing us to choose sides. But I don’t believe God wants to split our movement.